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 Post subject: 100v sitēmas
PostPosted: 23-Dec-2005 1:23:08 
Sveiki, jautajums sekojošs: Vai āpskaņošanā 100v sistēmas ir nekvalitatīvākas par parastajām? Vai kvalitāte ir līdzvērtīga. Un vēl, varbūt kāds var īsi apstāstīt kā slēdz tās 100v sistēmas kopā un no kā būtu jauzmanās un kas jāievēro? Un cik daudz tumbas var likt uz viena ampa? Kā arī... vai QSC ir pietiekami kvalitatīvs apskaņošanai, vai vajadzetu meklet ko vel labāku?

thanx...


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PostPosted: 23-Dec-2005 4:34:13 
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Location: Latvija
a tie 100v tev domaati kaa volti vai wati ? ja ka volti, tad teoretiski vajadzeetu buut labaakai, jo ta ir Amerikas tehnika


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PostPosted: 23-Dec-2005 8:42:27 
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Location: Rīga
nu nez par 100 V, ir 110 V. Un cik man zināms tad ražotāja valstij un barošanas tīkla spriegumam nav atvēlēta vieta formulās pēc kurām rēķina aparatūras parametrus vai iegūst kādus mērījumus.

Ja gribās operēt ar 110 V rijošām iekārtām tad nāksies pasvīst lai viņas nobarotu, ja nu vienīgi var iepirkt kādu trafu no Latvenergo un staipīt līdz. Eiropa toč nesapratīs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 23-Dec-2005 8:59:24 
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70V / 100V systems
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100V- or 70V-Systems are referred to as 'constant-voltage distributed audio systems'. The constant voltage system is the most economical way to install a multi-speaker sound reinforcement system.

The term ‚100V system' relates to the maximum output voltage of the amplifier. 100V is the usual voltage in Europe, 70V in the United States. A higher voltage up to 200V can be used too for very long cable runs and higher power requirements. To generate this high voltage, the amplifier is equipped with a step-up transformer, which transforms the regular output voltage, in the 15 to 30 Volts range, up to the necessary 100V (or 70V respectively).

The main difference to a regular low-impedance system (4 or 8 Ohms) is the way, individual loudspeakers are connected to the loudspeaker line. A large number of single loudspeakers, each equipped with a step-down transformer, can be connected to one single output line. Each speaker's step-down transformer has a relative high impedance at the primary side to connect to the 100V line. The secondary side of the transformer matches to the speaker itself (mostly 8 Ohms). The ration between the amplifier's output impedance and the individual speaker's transformer impedance is usually between 1:100 and 1:1000. Depending on the maximum power of an amplifier, each 100V amplifier matches to a certain minimum impedance than can be connected to this output. It does not matter how this impedance is achieved. A large number of smaller speakers (with an higher impedance at their step-down transformers) or a small number of larger speakers (with a lower impedance at their step-down transformers) can be connected to the 100V line or any combination of them. The only rule is that the total impedance of the 100V line should not fall below the minimum impedance of the amplifier's 100V output.

This solution was borrowed from the electrical power line distribution system.

The regular signal (voltage) during the transmission of music or speech is mostly far less that the maximum 100V. The voltage in the 100V line changes proportionally in the same way as the voltage at the audio input of the amplifier, because the output voltage of an amplifier is determined by the input signal only (the term '100V' defines the maximum voltage in the system in the same way as the term '+6 dB' defines the maximum level for a line signal, even if the actual level is much smaller).


Typical power rates and matching impedances (70 V system):

1 W 5 W 10 W 30 W 60 W 100 W
5000 Ohm 1000 Ohm 500 Ohm 167 Ohm 83 Ohm 50 Ohm



Also a much smaller wire diameter (AWG) can be used as in a low-impedance system (Increasing voltage and decreasing current minimizes the amount of current flowing in the wire.).
A distribution transformer is required to step up the output voltage of the amplifier so that the current flow is kept as low as possible. 25V, 70V, 100V and sometimes even more than 200V are used.
Many loudspeakers can be placed across the output by using distribution transformers. These second transformers are required at the loudspeakers to bring the voltage down to the low-voltage/high current signal needed to drive the loudspeakers. The distribution transformer usually has several taps to choose the proper power that will be drawn from the distribution line by the transformer (and finally by the loudspeaker).

These taps normally look as follows:



The input taps of the distribution transformer let one choose the power drawn from the line and the output taps let choose the connected loudspeaker (4 Ohms, 8 Ohms, 16 Ohms).



Distribution transformer (35V, 50V, 70V, 100V):

35V 50V 70V 100V Ohm, primary side
TAP 1 0.18 W 0.37 W 0.75 W 1.5 W 6400 Ohm
TAP 2 0.37 W 0.75 W 1.5 W 3 W 3200 Ohm
TAP 3 0.75 W 1.5 W 3 W 6 W 1600 Ohm


The downside of the use of transformers is, that they always degrade the sound quality in a certain way (especially the low end).

The simplest way to wire a constant-voltage system is to parallel all the speakers on only one long run of wire. But the amount of power lost in the wire may not allow the required amount of power to get to the farthest loudspeaker. And if there should be a short on the wire run, it would take down the entire system.

The better approach is to wire seperate rows of loudspeakers. These separate wire runs can be disconnected for troubleshooting and could be powered by different power amplifiers. They also can be switched differently (see paging switch).

It must be calculated with a certain power loss in the transformers (step-up and step-down transformer). Usually it will be 10 to 15 % for both transformers together.


Insertion loss is the loss of power through the transformer. If the loss is 3 dB, half of the amplifier's power is lost. You should not have more than 1 dB loss in any audio transformer. The insertion loss of the transformers is measured at 1000 Hz. One problem is here that most of the power in the sound spectrum is below 400 Hz and the insertion loss at 1000 Hz could give a false information. All transformers should be tested at 60 Hz too.


Insertion Loss Power Consumption

1.0 dB 1.259x
1.5 dB 1.413x
2.0 dB 1.580x
2.5 dB 1.770x


Wheelock Speaker Calculator a program to provide an easy way to determine wire lengths, quantity of speakers and amplification needed for commercial paging systems
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par sho laikam runa ... --- bet es neko nerubiju..... pat nelasiju sho... tikai atradu :) .

_________________
DA WHITE | DENNIS BALTFIRE | HARDSYNTHERZ official website: http://www.synthesiscrew.com


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 Post subject: Re: 100v sitēmas
PostPosted: 23-Dec-2005 10:34:41 
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Joined: 10-Sep-2004 14:13:42
Posts: 1247
muahahah, labi komentaari aizgaaja par sho teemu :] Nu nekas, smieties no riita ir veseliigi. Te cilveeks domaaja ko citu- paagustinaat spriegumu pastiprinaataaja izejas kaskaadee, lai vareetu piesleegt kilometru garu liiniju bez iipashiem zudumiem, kas buutu pie zemaas pretestiibas skaljruniem. Taapeec eksistee shaadas 70/100V sisteemas, kur katrs skaljrunis ir piesleegts caur transformatoru un dod slodzes pretestiibu liinijaa 1...10 kOhm.

Principaa 100V sisteemas peec definiicijas nav daudz nekvalitatiivaakas par 4-16Ohm sisteemaam. Ir tikai dazhi ierobezhojumi un nosaciijumi, kas jaaieveero. Kaa likums, kjeedes abos galos buus transformatori- jautaajums cik labi? Kiinas tautas dailjamata meistari razho skalrjunus, paredzeetus 100V sisteemai, kurus nosauc par 6W (tas ir diezgan padaudz) un ieliek tur pirksta izmeera veidojumu, kuru nosauc par transformatoru. Kaa vairums klaatesosho nojaush, transformatora impedance (Z) pazeminaas atkariibaa no frekvences. Respektiivi shis te mazais batons var noseedinaat visu liiniju, izraisiit nezheeliigus kroplojumus, ja gadiijumaa tam tiks piedaavaats zemaakas freq. signaals kaa tas transformators var akcepteet. Jaudas pastiprinaataaji ir daudz un jebkursh sevi cienoshs brands parasti pastiprinaataaja galaa saliek praatiigus transformatorus. Protams, ka gandriiz neviens nevarees atskanjot daudz zemaak par 50 ... 70 Hz. Bet shiim te 100V sisteemaam ta arii nav pamatmeerkis.

Sisteemas buutiiba ir vienkaarsha- savaac telpu info, kuraas jaauzstaada skaljruni, njemot veeraa skaljruna juutiibu, izreekini cik jaudiigu skaljruni vajadzees (fona muuzikai un izzinoshanai kadaa nelielaa viesniicas numuraa pietiks ar 250 mW, ja skalrunis buus kaadi 90 dB/1W@1m.). Parasti sho lietu reekina ar jaudas rezervi par pamatu nemot telpas pashtrokshnjus un pievienojot tiem 6 dB. Taalaak buus zinaams cik W skaljruni ir vajadziigi katraa telpaa- atkariibaa no skaita uz katras liinijas var izreekinaat cik W pastiprinaataaju vajag. Sheit parasti neizveic nekaadu smalku matemaatiku, bet njem piemeeram 3W x 120 gab. = 360W + 10% headroom = 400W. Taadu arii vajag pastiprinaataaju. Ja gadiijumaa skaljrunu ir vairaak kaa pieejamaa pastiprinaataaja izejas jauda, tad sadalam sho visu 2 liinijaas un turpinaam.
Par cik taa tomer ir 100V sisteema, buutu jaaieveero kabelju marka un izolaacijas pretestiiba. Nopietni cilveeki peec instalacijas veic katras keedes izolaacijas paarbaudi ar augstspriegumu pret zemi un taapat ariii Z meerijumus pie 1 kHz. Ideaali tos buutu veikt arii pie zemaakaas sisteemaa paredzeetaas freq. lai noskaidrotu kaa mainiisies tiikla noslodze. Kas attiecas uz pastiprinaataajiem, tad sheit ir diezgan plashs piedaavaajums tirguu- tam pasham QSC ir ljoti laba seerija ISA, taapat arii ir daudzkanaalu pastiprinataaji ar 70/100V izejaam. Es liidz shim esmu izmantojis integreeto sisteemu Dynacord Promatrix - lidosta, dzelzcelja stacija, nac. teaatris, biedriibas nams, opera, latvenergo, utt.
Vienkaarshaakaam instalaacijaam var lietot gandriiz jebkuru daudz maz nedzeltena branda izstraadaajumu.

ddff
Quote:
Sveiki, jautajums sekojošs: Vai āpskaņošanā 100v sistēmas ir nekvalitatīvākas par parastajām? Vai kvalitāte ir līdzvērtīga. Un vēl, varbūt kāds var īsi apstāstīt kā slēdz tās 100v sistēmas kopā un no kā būtu jauzmanās un kas jāievēro? Un cik daudz tumbas var likt uz viena ampa? Kā arī... vai QSC ir pietiekami kvalitatīvs apskaņošanai, vai vajadzetu meklet ko vel labāku?

thanx...


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 Post subject: Re: 100v sitēmas
PostPosted: 23-Dec-2005 12:38:04 
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Posts: 1284
Location: Rīga
Jahh, nostādot jautājumu no pareizās puses skaidrs top. Pašam smaidu uzsita atklāti, laikam jābeidz strādāt pa Ziemsvētkus iesildošo periodu.


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 Post subject: Re: 100v sitēmas
PostPosted: 26-Dec-2005 11:33:07 
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Joined: 10-Sep-2004 14:13:42
Posts: 1247
Atvainojos par dezinformaaciju peedeejaa postaa. Jaa, taas ir nekvalitatiivaakaas apmeram 10x, iipashi Latvijaa. Sheit straadaajoshie instalatori (atkal laikam jau no tiem 90%) ir uzsaakushi savdabiigu sociaalistisko sacensiibu- kursh atradiis leetaakos skaljrunjus. Sakaraa ar komercializeeto Z-sveetku tuvoshanos, apstaigaaju kaadus 7 lielveikalu (taa vinju sauc, vai ne?) un biju apdullinaats no taas pirdienu daardonjas, kas paar mani gaazaas no griestiem. Par cik ikdienaa neapmekleeju shaadus hektaariigus iestaadiijumus, sajuutas bija sameeraa ekstreemas. Ja man liktu kaut kaadaa veidaa atdarinaat dzirdeeto, tad man vieniigais naak praataa ring modulator ar kaadu 250....300 Hz rezonansi, kaadiem 20:80% dry/wet attieciibu un balss, kas apstraadaata ar telefona kanaala EQ. Drausi. Runaa, ka pagaidaam nedaliits rekords esot AMC skaljrunji par Ls 4 + nedaudz santimu. Jaa, jaa godaatie foruma lasiitaaji- shii esot cena par 3W skaljruni, transformatoru, dekoratiivo sietu un stiprinaajumiem, kas to notur griestos. Velns un elle- es ieprieksheejaa postaa runaaju par taadiem, kuru cena ir ~25x augstaaka. Nolaadeeta atpaliciiba manaa personaa.

ddff


[quote="jaunais masters"]Sveiki, jautajums sekojošs: Vai āpskaņošanā 100v sistēmas ir nekvalitatīvākas par parastajām? [quote]


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 Post subject: Re: 100v sitēmas
PostPosted: 26-Dec-2005 16:54:59 
Quote:
...Sakaraa ar komercializeeto Z-sveetku tuvoshanos, apstaigaaju kaadus 7 lielveikalu (taa vinju sauc, vai ne?) un biju apdullinaats... skip
hehe, skatos, ddff tika bikinj paspiidzinaats. izsaku patiesu liidzjuutiibu ;) bet nu taada ir taa dziives ruugtaa (a kaadam varbuut saldaa?) iisteniiba.
konkreti par lielajiem shkjuunjiem nezinu, kaa owneri tur plaano vinju dziives ciklus un tml. iespejams vienkarshi ka projekta iespeejamaas izgaazshanas gadijumaa, peec n gadiem (kur n<10) ar 75% varbuutiibu paredzeets to visu liidziinat ar buldozeriem, paardot zemes plekji un taisiit nakamo biznesu.

a mazaaki kantorishi, ja vinjiem pashiem nav specialu muzikalu veelmju (imo parasti nav), liek taas sitemas tik letas cik iespejams, ka tik atbilstu ugunsdroshibas un kaadaam tur vel obligaatajaam prasiibaam. liidz ar to arii attieciigais piedaavajums tirguu. paarejo kantoru atbildigajiem, kas varbut ari butu gatavi ieguldit kadu kapeiku vairaak, protams tiek sapuusta standarta maarketoidu migla, ka tie pashi letie kas noliktava ir "super labi". iizii. pats tak zini to virtuvi ;)

p.s. me gan izveeleejaas pabaudiit briivaas dienas biki radoshaakaa noskanjaa un ne ar tik lielu summaaraa thd bliivumu kvadraatmetraa ;)


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